I think Joan would agree with you that Barack is a guy who can talk about race, can talk about it in a way that accepts it is not simple...I think Joan would even agree that Barack might be an example- a really good one- of the kind of conversation she is hoping for....

But you should not expect Joan to do too much pointing to Obama as that kind of guy. Maybe later. It's not her way. People have TONS of different theories about this.

My suggestion is that you ask Joan (or us) specific questions related to the assumptions in this conversation. What typically happens around here is that everybody tries to this ONE conversation (about Wright, about Barack, about race) with all sorts of different premises...and then they get back at each other for such odd conclusions...

I read Joan's article and I see that she is concerned that the disparity in numbers we see in relation to the white vote is reflecting something very serious, something that MUST be resolved if Obama is going to win.

Look, I agree that those numbers need to be looked at and that there are important conversations to be had about race in the democratic party. That said, I need to know more about how Joan is interpreting those numbers and she really hasn't said. I get that she is worried and that her worry has to do with those numbers, but I don't yet see how, specifically, she is interpreting them.

For instance: Let's just pretend that Hillary had needed to pull out many months ago for some reason. Obama had already won his string of primary's so there was no question as to his support. I'm not sure if Joan is saying that with Hillary off the ballots, we would see really worrying numbers. If Hillary was on the sidelines for months telling people (including whites) exactly why they could trust Barack and if Barack was the option against McCain, I wonder if people see evidence that he white working-class would be very worried about him.

I think it's ok to give Clinton credit for getting votes, even if her white vote success is a combination of general enthusiasm for her competence and subtle shades of racism. it seems odd, to me, that we wouldn't primarily chalk up Barack's "problem" with the white working class vote as being a function of the fact that there is a well liked and well known white democrat running against him. Is Barack so wonderful that we should assume the white working class would have massively abandoned a popular white democrat?

I'm being sloppy, but my point is that either Joan is going to get into a conversation that really looks at what we don't know about those numbers...or she will start with a rather powerful set of assumptions that will certainly make her comment section light up!!!!!

If I read her article correctly, I can only imagine that Joan is fairly depressed about the general election...because I doubt she has much reason to believe that the democratic party will be able to have a mature conversation that figures out those numbers in the next few months while at the same time is focusing on all the crap that is about to get thrown at Obama. If Joan really thinks that Obama or Hillary can't win until this is figured out, I imagine she isn't very hopeful. Or....she has reason to think that we are about to see a social event take place that is unprecedented.

Don't you find it interesting that when somebody says, "Hey, I wish you would stop doing X"

the other person immediately gets constitutional and says, "I have every right to X"

Since when did voicing your opinion that somebody shouldn't do something get conflated with suggesting they have no American Right to do so?

It would be better if Hillary stepped down.

WHAT????? SHE HAS EVERY RIGHT TO RUN FOR PRESIDENT!

Remember when people said Nader should not have been running against Gore and Bush. Nader's people got mad and pointed out that it is an AMERICAN RIGHT.

Obama should pick Hillary for his VP.

WHAT? He has the right to pick whoe....

Don't you guys think Obama should just concede this thing to Hillary? Don't you get the sense that if Obama was just a tiny bit smarter and less narcissistic he would drop out of the race for Hillary, for the country? Don't you guys think that things would work out better if enough of us kept in mind how wrong it is too support Obama? Some people are supporting him just because he is a democrat; they don't even think about the fact that he has blackish skin and is somewhat snobbish. I'm serious. They just want him to be president. It kind of makes you sick to think about, doesn't it?

Wouldn't we do well to fight about this stuff and find out who is really right? Can't you admit that it would feel a little bit good if Obama lost in the general election just so you could know you were right. And won't it kind of be sad if he wins because it will mean somebody else was?

And before you decide to disagree with anything I've said, please keep your opinions to yourself and remember that I have the right to say these words. and that kind of makes them right.