"The thing is this: Obama's soaring, floating oratory is his whole currency. If we can't trust that oratory is authentic, then what? We are buying a pig in a poke. We certainly can't trust he can deliver on anything. Unlike JFK, yes - he used terrific and inspiring oratory, but we also KNEW (those of us who lived then) he was capable of DOING things to really change the nation for the better."

Well, for some of us his soaring floating oratory (as you call it) is not his WHOLE currency. There is also his ability to organize thousands of grassroots people to vote for him across party lines, his ability to pass controversial legislation in the Illinois senate, and ethics reform and weapons reduction legislation etc. in the national senate. There is also a whole list of things that won't convince you if you insist that his "whole" currency is his speech making.

Also, admittedly, I wasn't around then, but no one could have KNOWN what JFK was capable of until he was actually doing it...just like we can't KNOW what HRC, Obama or McCain will do once in office, unfortunately. We have to offer up our best guess based on past performances and our understanding of each candidate's ability, experience and character. This is what elections are all about.

But I saw that reductive argument coming from the Clinton campaign from a mile away--his lack of experience, verses her plethera of experience. The same argument--in redux. There's more than rhetoric to Obama, but some don't want to look. I don't know everything that Obama (or Clinton or McCain) is capable of--but I do know that Obama's argument for his candidacy includes more than his ability to write speeches.

Can each of Clinton's supportes name her legislative accomplishments though? Can you list her legislative accomplishments? She wants to match up her accomplishments with his?

Here are three items: He sponsored ethics reform, a non-proliferation of missile and other weapons clause for the anti-nuclear proliferation treaty, and a humanitarian aid package to the Darfur region...

Okay--that's a partial list. Please make a similar list for Clinton's legislative accomplishments.

I hate that the discussions are growing so cantankerous here (although I do like using the word cantakerous...) but fair is fair. If Obama's suit has some substance after all, (one supporter does not provide proof that there is no substance, particularly since she later apologized and provided a list of his accomplishments, longer than the one I've given) then belly up to the bar. Thirty-five years is a monolith. Break it down and bring her particular accomplishments to the table. If only Clinton or her supporters had done this earlier I think it would have helped her to win some of the college educated, or information savvy people who have been voting for him instead.

ljwalker for some reason I associate your name a little with Luke Skywalker (which I mean in a good way).

First, I admit that I've been in a bad temper today, so I apologize. I was asking RJforHRC if he knew her record--since he seemed to be, in a broad way, criticizing an Obama supporter for not knowing Obama's record. My point was about supporters knowing legislative accomplishments--and I've said before, I appreciate that you know Hillary's record although many of her supporters may not be as well informed as you are.

I also wish that one of these days you might admit that Obama has done many good things during his years in public service too, including having all police interrogations videotaped in Chicago (where "confessions" were being forced out of suspects). Also his work on Nunn-Lugar is significant, and his aid package to the Darfur region with the help of Samantha Power. And even his work with John McCain on immigration reform and climate change were important contributions to the senate in the past few years.

I know its hard having such a long stretch of time when HRC supporters and Obama supporters are "enemies"...but you know we're going to need to join sides pretty soon. I know that this nomination is far from in the bag for either of them at this point....so we're waiting to see what happens. In the meanwhile, if Obama is the nominee, I hope that you'll realize that it's mean spirited to imply that Obama is no more than an empty suit....and I apologize, as well, if I sounded mean-spirited about Hillary or her supporters.

These are trying times. More than anything, I don't want a President McCain. Please try to learn to love Senator Obama if the time comes and he's your candidate of choice against the Return to Bush with McCain ticket. For myself, I don't really need to learn to love Clinton. I have admired her for a long time, and as much as this has been a difficult (and LONG) election season, I still do respect the way she holds her own against the disrespect she receives from MSNBC etc. Now if she would only fire that dreaded Mark Penn....I would love to see her run a stronger, more positive campaign around just the accomplishments that you mention in your posts.

shalom