Thanks so much for the response, and especially for the recommendations. I've been a (very) casual and (very) intermittent reader of Salon for years, and I've been looking for forums beyond the usual blogs I frequent and since Salon always seemed sound and smart, I figured I'd give it a try.

I agree with you about Greenwald and I've found some of the posters here willing to engage, which is heartening, but generally, the vast majority of the "communication," especially among the respondents, is a lot of talking past one another, polemic/counter-polemic, total refusal to engage in honest (and I do mean honest) debate.

It's like talk radio, for God's sake, which is sad, because the potential of a medium like this to connect with one another and form real bonds, especially amongst people who otherwise would never come across one another in real life, is boundless.

Like Obama, I believe in the bottom of my heart that the divisions that afflict our society and prevent meaningful legislation from advancing will only be remedied by a new day of mutual respect. We don't have to agree, of course, but for God's sake, we need to listen to one another, not in order to glean information necessary to refine one's argument or salesmanship, but to establish the meaningful consensus that will enable us to look past the superficial divisions exploited by Fox News, et. al., and actually, God forbid, cooperate.

Let it start with us.

Obama's call is for us to pull together. Yes we can.

That includes all of us, right here, right now.

He's offering us a vision and here we are, pissing all over it by refusing to engage with one another in a nobler way.

So much unrealized potential.

A singer I very much respect commented in an interview that there are two ways to be in the world, that there's no good and bad, but only open and closed.

I allowed myself to respond in a petty and mean-spirited way to David down below because he seemed to hold me in contempt for trying to be open and not closed.

I apologize for that. I should not have responded in kind, but I did, and I regret it.

That's not what I'm about.

Anyway, thank you, AA, for responding and for pointing me towards what may be more rewarding forums.

(Not a gbcw, btw, by any stretch. I'll stick around.)

"But race is an issue that I believe this nation cannot afford to ignore right now. We would be making the same mistake that Reverend Wright made in his offending sermons about America - to simplify and stereotype and amplify the negative to the point that it distorts reality.

The fact is that the comments that have been made and the issues that have surfaced over the last few weeks reflect the complexities of race in this country that we've never really worked through - a part of our union that we have yet to perfect. And if we walk away now, if we simply retreat into our respective corners, we will never be able to come together and solve challenges like health care, or education, or the need to find good jobs for every American."

Just ftr, I happen to agree with these words, and that is why Obama is my candidate. I do not endorse these words because Obama is my candidate.

That said, wouldn't it be nice if we could actually have a debate or discussion about this thesis?

It's a profound one and it's at the heart of Obama's candidacy. It's also at the heart of the philosophical difference between Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama. The former believes the way to procure the boons is to outmaneuver the other side, to defeat the other side. A valid approach.

Obama believes the way to procure the boons is to enlist the other side, to make friends of enemies based upon mutual self-interest.

Also a valid approach.

This, to me, seems the crux of the choice between the two candidates.

Why can't we explore the histories of these two approaches to politics, their successes, their failures, their costs, their benefits?

We do we spend so much time on bullshit?

Thank you!

I guess the conversational approach is something I get from the blogs I frequent. I can understand that hasn't been the traditional function of this forum. That helps a lot, thank you.

Is there any kind of overall statement of etiquette, etc. I might look over, so far as you know?