Had the Dems "defunded" the "war" they would truly "own defeat" in El Rushbo's phrase. Crafted by Luntz and blasted 24/7 by the Noise Machine, the red state dummies would be assured that the U.S. was, in fact, "winning" in Iraq - until the troops were stabbed in the back by the cowardly terrorist appeasers who couldn't wait to set their "surrender date."

The Dems did what they believe they have to do in order to win the White House as well as the Congress in '08. Fair enough; but I despise them for refusing to do what is right. It's hard to care much, if the only choice is between The Party of Lies and Wars on one hand, and the Gop on the other. As long as no one is trying to draft me, screw 'em all.

Were the situation reversed the Gops would not hesitate to pull the plug from "Clinton's Folly" or "Gore's Fiasco" and impeach any Dem who had failed to catch bin-Forgotten six freakin' years after 9/11. But the Gops can afford to be partisan, because they have the craven corporate media and the idiotic electoral college firmly on their side. So it goes.

Glenn writes, "Would George Bush simply ignore de-funding and leave the troops in Iraq? I highly doubt it, not because it transgresses his limits . . . but because it would [be] so politically impossible. Everyone recognizes that Congress has the power to de-fund wars."

WeikuBoy's response (in the voice of the Boss in 'Office Space'): Uhh, yeeeah, I'm gonna have to go ahead and disagree with you there. (And for the first time ever, really, Glenn.)

In the event of defunding, Bush-Cheney would ignore the need for an orderly withdrawal, citing the need to fight The Terrorists there, blah blah blah. Then, as the "surrender date" approached, a Tonkin Gulf-type incident would occur, perhaps against Iran; and Congress would be compelled to choose between ignoring an act of war (revealed much later to be a complete fabrication, of course) and reversing defunding with its collective tail between its legs and giving Bush-Cheney everything they want plus an apology (and a third term too).

Don't forget the Noise Machine would be cranked up to 11 clamoring for war; and the Chris Matthewses of the world would be practically orgasmic over Bush Jr's "resolve."

These people have shown zero respect for the Constitution or Congress thus far; why start now? I'm only amazed they didn't have some faux-WMD flown into Iraq in 2003.

Scientician writes, "Even if Bush would ignore congressional limitations, then let's force him to do so." Uh, OK. I guess "we" start by electing a Democrat [sic] Congress (again). How's the current Democrat Congress working out, by the way? Isn't it their failure to stop the Gop's use of the politics of fear to trump our will that started this discussion?

The Reality Kid is absolutely correct. This "war" was about establishing permanent U.S. bases atop the oil (not to mention, in the case of Iraq, the biggest U.S. embassy in the world). This has been the goal of the neocons since the Ford Administration and the oil shocks of the 70's. Congress will not be allowed to interfere with that plan and the Gop would literally let the troops run out of bullets and be killed if that is what it will take to humble Congress and defeat the enemy (the true enemy, of course, being the Dems).

Please forgeev my Ace, he is good boy, always geev me kiss on cheek when I tuck him in hees bed fore good night. It all my fault for I let heem play weeth computer in basement but no supervise much. He feenesh six grade promote to meedle school this yeer. Please not be too hard my Ace. I promiss watch heem more close now on, take away computer.

Sinceerely,

Ace Mom

No one, including David Talbot, mentioned the most egregious part of Matthews's show: the silly notion that Dems & Libs "won't accept the lone gunman theory because Oswald was a lefty." Oswald is a paradox, but I have never, ever, thought of him as a "lefty". In fact JFK's assassination remains "unsettled" because the Zapruder film clearly shows he was shot at least once from the front (after deciding to pull U.S. advisors from Vietnam).

The most unique thing about this thread is that the great Bob "Daily Howler" Somerby wrote a letter to Salon which appears as the second-from-oldest. Check it out.

Pudgenet writes, "People on the left were claiming [Plame] was covert without actually knowing it . . . [a]nd don't even get me started on the still-repeated lie that Bush's '16 words' were in any way based on the forged documents, or affected by Joe Wilson's trip. Both the leftwing AND the rightwing noise machines are full of crap . . ."

1. People like me believe Plame was covert because the CIA asked Justice to investigate her outing. (No, I don't believe the CIA is as partisan as the Bush-Cheney White House.)

2. The African uranium nonsense, whatever its source, was disproven by Joe Wilson's trip to Niger. (No, the truth cannot be lawyered away by adding the words "the British govt.")

3. What left-wing noise machine? (Michael Moore's occasional documentaries? Really?)

The Noise Machine consists of overt Gop partisans including but not limited to Faux News and talk radio ("Wilson's wife was a desk-jockey!") in concert with a corporate media that in lieu of real reporting parrots the shouting of the Gop partisans ("There's a firestorm of controversy raging today over the question of whether Valerie Plame was really covert").

If there is a Left-Wing Noise Machine out there somewhere, someone must've forgotten to plug it in, because it has been awfully quiet -- like, forever.