Right wing evangelical religious movements that are obsessed with Revelation, the end times, the rapture, are a new and very present danger to the world. Not historically new, since the idea that the end was just around the corner has always existed. What is new is the means to the end. The strange political alliance between right wing Christians and right wing Jews flows from a literal reading of Revelation. They believe the Jews must return to Israel before we get the Rapture. The idea that a book almost 2,000 years old can dictate 21st century politics boggles the mind. Palin is a very dangerous person for this reason. Her seeming certainty, coupled with ignorance is a nightmare waiting to happen. They want to bring on the Rapture. They want to see Jesus come back flying down from the clouds. It's not too difficult to imagine some future President pushing the button to help fulfill his sick twisted idea of god's will.

We need to speak out more forcefully about the separation of church and state. We need to stand up to religious bullies full of arrogance and vile political policy. We need real religious leaders and scholars to debunk these insane theory's and place this dangerous book of the bible in a historic context. Ignorance is no longer bliss... it is death. Now that we have the ability to destroy ourselves we can no longer cling to superstition. Our survival depends upon it.

The line in the sand has been crossed...

Giovanni... your usefulness is no more...

"Lieberman no longer attends Democratic Senate caucus leadership strategy meetings or policy lunches."

Good...

Straw Man, Argument from Authority, Appeal to sincerity... anyone else want to add to the list?

Mr Kerr you are a mess. Let me get this straight... it's OK for you to send me to detention without representation or charge because you're gonna do it with "real" arguments and "real" credibility? Why sir... your virtue brings tears to my eyes. However... I think I'd rather hang on to my Rights given to me by the constitution rather than wallow in your well argued and authoritative logical fallacies.

As a ex-Catholic I still have the urge to occasionally confess.

So hear my confession.

I was reading Glenn's piece on detention with CNN on the TV in the background. There was an excellent piece on the Bali Bombers where a CNN corespondent interviewed the bombers before they were recently executed for killing over 200+ people in a busy market. There was a wall of hate manifested by their responses. No matter what the interviewer tried, the answers to questions were a litany of religious certitude and irrationality. Discussion or reason were impossible with these men.

I believe torture is wrong. I know that the information obtained is often useless. I believe when the US tortures innocents, it is terrible for our moral image in the world.

And yet...

Listening to these men... I was beyond anger. The arrogance of their certitude and vile attitudes to life and liberty and basic human values lit the anger inside of me.

These are men without a state. Without reasonable demands or goals.They are beyond reach. They are members of a cult of death. The comparisons to WW2 are invalid. This is something new. Something not seen before.

So... my confession is... were I faced with such a man, and I knew he held information that would save lives, I would use any means necessary to obtain it. The Bush administration were incompetent fools, applying torture to innocents, by people who were not trained. Who had no idea what they were doing.

My scenario is different. The willy nilly application of torture and rendition is obviously stupid and wrong. But what if you have a KNOWN terrorist. Are you telling me you're not going to grab him? Bin Laden is sitting in some café, and you're going to let him finish his tea because he's in a country without an extradition treaty?

Again... a part of me knows that in the absolute realm of human decency and respect for rights this is wrong. However, we are not living in an abstract world. We are in the real world where one man with a suitcase can destroy a city.

There must be protections here. The wild west methods of the Bush administration are stupid and obviously wrong. The capture of innocents is beyond the pale. Some kind of due process must be in place. It is a sad and dangerous world. We must have the maturity, and yes, moral will, to confront these grey areas. To look with open eyes and clear heads. I don't feel good about this. However, the world is not always a feel good place. We can adopt the idea that all torture and rendition is wrong under any circumstance. I think world events have brought us past that. Just what that means, and what we are going to do about it, is a hard question.

I guess I expected some of the Ad Hominem attacks here by writing something this inflammatory.

Rememeber... you confess your sins.

I still want an answer to my question. Is this something we can simply say 'no rendition or torture under any circumstance', or do we need to clearly think about it.

How about the rendition of a known terrorist from a country without an extradition treaty? Any takers?

"In those extremely rare situations where getting the information virtually immediately is crucial to avoid death and disaster, if torture is the only way, then we rely on the discretion of the prosecutor, public opinion, and a jury that just won't convict under the circumstances."

Your response does leave open the idea that torture, in an extreme circumstance, could be OK as long as it was not institutionalized.

Is torture a Pandora's box? What about the absolute moral issue?

What about rendition?