And these are the people who don't think sexism exists?

Well, gosh, yes we could act like men and rape women and children and start wars, and destroy the environment...

Or we could all behave like transformed humans who deeply care for each other, the environment, and the rights of all people.

I'm beginning to believe that those women who are calling themselves feminists and talking about bra burning are republican trolls.

Most feminists know that the "bra burning" episode never happened or existed, and was a media scam and hype. If you burned your bra, you were probably the only one who did so....

but I doubt it.

All the feminists I know are pro-choice, but all the feminists I know don't think that reproductive rights is the ONLY feminist issue.

And African American male, you lost all credibility with me once you said snide things about women of color, and derided their "crying."

Gosh, real men don't cry, they suck it up, they get angry, they hurt people, they never show emotion...Duh! This is 19th century nonsense, it doesn't even make it into the 20th century.

One thing this "dialogue" here has helped me with...I don't want to be part of ANY party that does not understand that sexism and racism BOTH exist, are BOTH wrong, and that the voices of oppressed people must be honored and their concerns deferred to, and their goals incorporated into any goals, objectives, plans or activities. (You don't have to be a dem to vote for Obama.)

I am a feminist, and I am white, but do NOT lump me into a group of ANY individuals (PUMAS or whatever) who do not consider racism immoral, disgusting, and prevalent on a daily basis in the world. My definition of feminism includes strong support for reproductive rights (including the right of women not to be sterilized (as has happened to women of color) as well as the right to legal affordable abortion, as well as the right to affordable birth control). My definition of feminism includes opposition to a wide range of progressive issues that I have listed again and again.

I am a progressive, but NEVER include me in a group that doesn't understand misogyny and sexism and how it happens on a daily basis in this world, and how the rights of women and children (both male and female) are trampled. Let's talk about male consumption of women and children and the world wide trafficking of women and girls (and boys)....consumed and used by men.

And since when is electoral politics the (only) way to transform society? It's one way -- to prevent destruction of the planet -- while we persuade people to change. But it's not the only way....I could never have wholeheartedly supported Sen. Clinton or Senator Obama, no matter who I voted for, or who I will vote for. Neither of them are progressive; both are somewhat left of center (which is light years away from John McCain/George Bush III).

I hear a lot of talk about the Greens, but Ralph Nader never incorporated the rights of women OR the civil rights of lesbian, gays, bisexual and transgender people into his platform.

Any person who is only out for themselves (or the one little narrow group they identify with) is morally bankrupt in my eyes.

Susan McGee

I will tell you all why *I* am SO MAD...as a woman?

You really want to know?

Because of all the unbelievably sexist (and uninformed) and misogynist comments that have been made on this list...

Fake Doctor -- did you never hear of rape? Women and girls do NOT always have the "choice" of using birth control or avoiding a penis ejaculating into their vagina....

Woman who stated that "women didn't have a chance to play sports"? Do you REALIZE that you are SPOUTING a line that was used for decades to keep women out of decision making roles?

That women "didn't have a chance" to play organized sports before Title IX (another victory of the feminist movement that you are so derisive of).

But you know what? We lost all the time. And we were REQUIRED to be "nice" and "sweet" and smile all the time, that was the REQUIRED role of women -- we were taught to throw the game, to make men feel better, to smile and be sweet.

And, Africa American Male, how DARE you state that white women always had self serving intentions in working for civil rights?

How do you know? What self serving cause might a white woman be pursuing by risking her life for voting rights... And what feminist causes have YOU worked for -- after stating that Black men have always supported feminist causes....

And I'm angry about racism, too...Yes, African Americans officially got the vote before women did....but neither African American WOMEN NOR African America men REALLY got to vote before the civil rights movement ONE HUNDRED YEARS LATER.