Are you gentlemen serious or saying things for effect?

For one thing, you cannot generalize about the entire set of women's college graduates that way because you're dealing with -- at least -- 70 years of surviving alumnae, and possibly more (if we assume that some of the surviving alumnae of the classes of 1928 and 1938 are still actively engaged, and, knowing the breed, I'm assuming just that). Because of these women's varying ages, socializations, and experiences, we're all going to have different opinions on whether gender is inherent or a construct, and those opinions are -really- going to vary on either side of the Second Wave Feminism divide. Not to mention that this is an ongoing discussion that we all have with ourselves and one another.

Billion, where's the struggle? Are you kidding me? First, let's get one thing straight. Transgendering isn't just male to female; it's also female to male. Why would that be a struggle?

What's the first thing beyond "is it healthy?" that you ask about a baby?

Now, let's say you're a kid who grew up feeling like a girl, although the kid presented as a boy. Or vice versa. Kids are subjected to all sorts of socialization, but kids also, as mte said, know when they REALLY don't fit. So do the kids around them. I imagine it's rough. I imagine some don't survive.

Let's say the kid grows up enough to know that there are options. The options take a long time, involve a lot of meds, and a lot of painful, expensive surgery and resocialization AND coping with people who just don't get it.

I'd call that a struggle. You wouldn't? I only hope no one you know doesn't go through it and have to rely on you.

That wasn't quite the point I was making. I was simply being inclusive. When we talk about useful and helpful things for women, people like you frequently come in with "what about the men?"

So, I figured I'd be helpful here. I would think it would be very difficult and dangerous to be a male prostitute in what is still a homophobic environment.

You don't seem to agree.

Yes, he did, and it's a serious one. I don't believe gender is just a construct. Wish I did: it would be easier. What I do think is that for many people, how gender and orientation express themselves can be fluid, especially in an environment that doesn't criticize experimentation as harshly as some other places. Wyoming comes to mind.

Well, the Saudi women -do- get rigorously -halal- food in a dormitory kitchen they share that's also kept to Orthodox Jewish standards, which I think is one of the most delightful things going on.

How are "the feminists" responsible for Kristen/Ashley?

That sounds like a lazy generalized accusation to me.

Even if they identify and present as males? Why would they want to, Malusinka?

And how do you figure it?

I'm Second Wave, and that still sounds like lazy hyperbole.

Why do you do it?

>>>>>>A few know what is wrong, and a women's college may not be the best place for FtMs to transition>>>>>

Agreed, definitely. A woman who figured out that she really was oriented to being male and wanted to go FtM really might be better off in the daily presence of more men.

>>>>>but might be good for MtFs. Most don't know what is wrong, but need some space to figure out what is wrong.>>>>>

The problem with that is that, while the male still doesn't know, he cannot apply. If he's in mid-transformation...that's what we're discussing. If he's in mid-transformation and somewhere else, I frankly would be leery of admitting this person because IF the student decided at some point to remain male...he ought in that case to transfer back.

>>>>>>Many of the people who need space to figure things out won't be trans men. Many will be ordinary women. Why turn people who need that space away?>>>>>>

I can't see why, unless they can't handle the work or the culture.

>>>>>Why drive people who discover they are trans men away?>>>>

I don't think it's the best environment for them. Granted, in human terms, that isn't the judgment I should be making. But as a graduate of a woman's college, I don't see why they wouldn't be just as well off at a coeducational liberal arts college of the same caliber.

AT the same time, however, a student decides over the course of her education that she would infinitely rather be male. As long as she is at the school, she's a -student- and should be treated as such. Here, I have to admit my own discomfort because of the institution and its culture.

If she made the full transformation after graduation, I think I'd simply shrug. I admit to not being fully consistent.

And ALL of it depends on the ability to do the work. I'm not saying transgendered people aren't able: I'd say that they're probably more introspective and aware than people who haven't gone through that type of therapy and self-analysis. I'm saying that if the person is in psychological crisis, a year off might be better, not because the school is evading responsibility but because a therapeutic environment might be better and even safer.

Wow. You come up with a provocative statement that I oppose twice, and I'm shouting.

I never shout. I don't have to. And I am never shrill or strident, either. Early socialization as a lady.

You're the one making the assertion. You make the case. Why should I do your research for you?

Yes, I can do better. Too much better than fall into those traps.

That's why I asked why you tried to argue that way.

No, I don't see feminism as bearing any blame for Kristen/Ashley. I think feminism might have helped her achieve autonomy, rather than rely on a boyfriend to pay for a an apartment costing more than $3K per month.