It seems we're way beyond rational discussion and into some sort of non-violent combat. Well, usually non-violent, the point being conservatives aren't listening and facts simply don't matter. Their decision to try to make this Obama's "Waterloo" is interesting, because it seems conservatives, after a serious of losses, have decided to gamble on health insurance and throw everything they have at their enemy --- you know, like Napoleon at Waterloo. They're using spin, outright lies, appeals to racism, ignorance, paranoia, and now they're trying to outright stop the debate and even use physical intimidation. The most extreme are talking about bringing guns and shooting members of the SEIU and ACORN: http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2009/08/anti-health-care-reform-protester-encourages-physical-violence-use-of-firearms.php

Unless they actually try a lynch mob or shooting people, I don't know where they go. The good news is if some sort of reform passes, maybe any reform at all, this is a big defeat or conservatives and it would be Obama's Waterloo: Barack "Wellington" Obama. Certainly they'll continue to use this strategy if it works, but if it fails, they truly have nothing left. That's how high conservatives have raised the stakes.

"it’s probably not helping to have one side quibbling over healthcare co-ops versus public buy-in options while the other is almost literally preparing for war."

That's what I'm trying to get across to my fellow liberals. Facts don't matter anymore. Our discussions of whether we hold out for this or that are pointless. We are in severe danger of having no bill at all. Our opponents have decided that any reform at all is a defeat for them, so let's push that. Any bill, even a bad bill, is a win. We can go back and fix it later. If we get nothing, it will be at least a decade before there's another chance. Politicians simply won't dare touch it.

I urge liberals to recognize that while we debate policy details and divide our efforts among a number of issues --- all of which are important --- conservatives are intensely focused on defeating health care. They aren't just using the usual spin and lies and big ad buys. They are throwing everything they have into this, and if we don't recognize that, we've already lost. "...ANY bill coming out this year would be a failure for us..." http://theplumline.whorunsgov.com/seius-notes-on-a-tea-party-strategy-conference-call/

If the Republicans are this unhappy, it must be good. If Republicans want to attack anybody else for being too close to big business, good, I needed the laugh. I think Obama was wise to cut a deal with PhRma and divide the two big business lobbies expected to oppose health care reform. Even if PhRma is an ineffective friend, at least we don't have to fight them, so we're much more likely to get something through. Moreover, when it comes time to work on pharmaceutical prices, insurance will likely be opposing phrma then too. Sounds like the lobbying equivalent of divide and conquer.

I've used the phrase "bearing false witness" too when describing some of the religious fundamentalists putting out lies. A lot of the people buying the swill believe it because it's coming from outwardly religious people. Sometimes it takes the religious code words to get through.

I've heard non-celebrity, seemingly non-crazy conservatives ask if a civil war is coming. They're that upset, and I really suspect some like Voight are hoping for it. My impression is conservative derangement is even worse than it was in the 1990's, but I keep telling myself that's just the freshness of memory.

I can't conceive they have enough support to really live out their fantasies, but I expect more violence from the right. It took the bombing in Oklahoma City to get them to calm down for a while in the 90's, so I can't help worrying it will take another big right wing terrorist incident to make most of the right rethink their rhetoric.

I don't get why the Senate can't move forward without the finance committee bill. The fact is that if for some reason this committee has to pass a bill before anything happens, then no deadline can be imposed, and they can stop anything from being passed. Isn't there some way past this committee?

The difficulty for OFA is that getting the grassroots to not merely write their own congressman, but also to ask others to do so, requires specifics. That's why the grassroots campaign can work for an election. It's specific: "vote for candidate ___". How would it work if you knocked on a door and asked the person who answered to vote for some Democrat, but we haven't decided which one yet? That's where we are with health care. Is the public option in or out? Are co-ops in or out? If I'm the one knocking on the door, I need to know I'm asking the person to support something specific, not reform in general.

"That is the "Holy Grail" of lefty thinking and planning: the dissolution of the military, the abolition of national borders and the creation of a UN police force under the control of non-US interests. If that is the long-term plan, then say so."

Oh nooo! Our conspiracy's secret plan has been discovered! Quick, let's get on the black helicopters and get out of here!

Glock45 has been making that same post in multiple places. What is so wrong with you that even on the day the man dies, you're that filled with hate?

I'm currently midway through Naomi Klein's Shock Doctrine, and seeing how long the the "washington consensus" lasted and how powerful it was, it's hard for me to believe it's dead. Should be dead, yes. Is dead, sorry, no, not when it became like a tenet of religious faith for believers. It only gathered strength as it failed and failed again, so if we think it's dead, check for a pulse. Chop up the parts. Burn them, put the ashes in separate urns, and lock the urns in separate safes.