Just add this to the list of genocidal and near-genocidal policy activities which right wing (and on occasion "sensible liberal" or "sane moderates") feel free to recommend, which if were ever recommended to be carried out in U.S.-allied societies would be seen for the horrors they are. ...

Forget 'recommendations' for a second. Was there ever a time in our history (even colonial times) that genocide or near-genocide was not being carried out? Can any of our amateur historians name some American 'golden time' of a generation when America was not using force on some 'other'?

I think these bastards today are just taking us quickly to that place we have always been heading towards anyway. What is all that different about the Bush war and the actions of Reagan's administration other that Bush getting a lot more of our sons and daughters needlessly killed? America needs to have a conversation with itself someday soon over basic morality.

...No matter how true it is that both parties have an abundance of horrid excuses for human beings, it's all a matter of degree. Such is life. And to that point, there is no way in hell's hottest corner that we would have gone into Iraq, and still be in Iraq, if Al Gore had been elected President in 2000. ...

Proof please. There is no way for you to know that. Even given that I am a Gore fan and supporter from our Tennessee days, I do not know what he might have done. No one expected LBJ to do what he did. Bush ran the first time as the "anti-war" candidate. Wilson ran on keeping America out of the European war.

You must not have watched the two parties for almost 1/2 century as I have --- both can break your heart.

Go ahead and hate the GOP as it is acting now and I applaud you. Pretend that the Democrats are not capable of such atrocities in spite of the historical record and I must back away from your ideas.

It is not that I do not wish you were right, I just know you are not.

On a moral conversation in this country:

Soon like yesterday. We cannot continue to support murderous foreign policies that simply benefit us economically, this is the environment that has bred modern terror groups, this is the reason we have lost the moral high ground in international eyes, this is why so many people see nothing wrong with neocon policies: we're just looking out for #1! So what if a few hundred thousand eggs get broken?

Spot on; I could write a few words, but I could add nothing. Very well put.

I hate to tell you this, but that is the history of (virtually?) every group of humans that have ever had the power to do so.

Do you think that is why the founding fathers wanted the central government to be so weak that it was barely there? (see Articles of Confederation)

The Washington Post reports that the Jefferson Memorial building is sinking into the mud of Washington, D.C.

"... Underground, though, the problems may be huge: Slowly, almost imperceptibly, parts of the complex seem to be sinking into the mud. ..."

...Hard for me to say what you are addressing ...

You have never known, you have only your hatred to keep you warm at night; plus you seem quite unable to grasp almost any argument.

You want to make the case that you know Gore would never have attacked other counties after 9-11. That is utter codswallop. We will never know since history is not a lab science (and you could not do it, even if it was) and the actions of an Al Gore would be unknown until he was tested. He did back Clinton's wars to the hilt; from that we see evidence.

I could vote for Gore again, but I have no fantasies that he is a saint that could resist the call of great power.

http://artvoice.com/issues/v6n25/
giuliani_altar_boys_and_weasels

Michael I. Niman:

"Giuliani’s disdain for freedom of speech is best exemplified by the case of Robert Lederman, an artist who specializes in drawing caricatures of Giuliani as a dictator and depicting his policies as transforming New York into a police state. Lederman was arrested 40 times during Giuliani’s reign for displaying his art at political demonstrations and on the streets of New York. Lederman was never convicted of a crime. . . .

"Under [Rudy's Zero Tolerance] policy, New Yorkers were handcuffed and dragged off to jail for drinking beer on their front stoops —the New York City equivalent of hanging out on the porch. Marijuana possession arrests increased by well over 4,000 percent. Eventually almost 70,000 people sued the city for police abuses such as strip-searching suspected jaywalkers. In 1999, James Savage, the president of the New York City police union, referred to Giuliani’s zero tolerance policy as a “blueprint for a police state and tyranny.' . . .

"Fashion-wise, [Rudy's Street Crimes Unit] had more resemblance to Guatemala’s notorious military death squads, wearing 'We Own the Night' t-shirts, and shirts citing Ernest Hemingway’s 'There is no hunting like the hunting of man” quote—quite a variation from standard issue uniforms.

"This is the police unit that became notorious for shooting African immigrant Amadou Diallo 40 times as he reached for his wallet after being ordered to show identification. When New Yorkers took to the streets to protest the shooting, Giuliani told the press that people were protesting due to 'their own personal inadequacies.'

"Eventually the Giuliani-sanctioned machismo infected other units in the police department. When undercover officers asked a man on the street to sell them marijuana, the man, Patrick Dorismond, took offense to being called a drug-dealer and got into a scuffle with the unidentified officers, who shot him dead. Giuliani issued a knee-jerk defense of the killers, telling the press that Dorismond was 'no altar boy.' Salon.com pointed out that, in fact, he was an altar boy."