I'm a big fan of voluntary and non-coerced myself. I'm also a fan of democracy, which you've claimed not to be. There is an aspect of majority rule -- whether in a club with 20 members, or in the U.S. Government -- which does compel people to do things they'd prefer not to do left to their own devices, ...

Private clubs do not kill the members who can not abide by the decision of the majority; Governments do. So when you confuse the issue by pretending there is no difference in a modern State and a private club you are being disingenuous, are you not?

And "democracy" is not the "great" form of government that you think it is. If lwm has not made you afraid, read "Democracy: The God that Failed".

You could argue that these compulsions are sensible for the most part, and when they're not, they're unjust, and should be opposed as a matter of conscience. In that I would agree, except, of course, to note that notions of what's sensible and what's not vary widely, and that the legitimacy of the power to compel has never been as simply defined as you seem to demand.

No, one could not. Compulsions by force are not sensible, desirable, morally justifiable, or even efficient to the well being of the greater good. The central idea is that you own your own life; you are not born a slave. For the government to force you on pain of death to give up your wealth to them, or your life, or just that you kneel and obey is not to be defended by rational people who are well informed.

If the State is powerful enough to give you what you want (always taken from others by force), then that government is powerful enough to take all you have away from you. Including your life? You bet.

A caveat or two, Bucky

This is Glenn's blog, and he's asked that we tone down the libertarian wars. I don't want or need a treatise from you, just some clarification on why you think that the evils you ascribe to government of necessity wouldn't, or don't apply to any human enterprise similar in scale. That's always puzzled me about libertarians, who hate FDR, but seem to love the wizard of Bentonville. -- William Timberman

Willy, you asked. I see no reason for a "war" other than the comments of the insane ones that you will have already seen by now. They argue by silly grade-school tactics. lwm is already showing his serious mental difficulties and I have not even answered your questions yet.

I would like to see a "war" over what "liberal", "leftist", and "progressive" means here at UT. I truly can not keep up with the sifting meanings of these words.

I will answer the questions in the next post.

"... I've just never found a libertarian willing to discuss these things in detail without delivering a seemingly solipsistic moral lecture. ..." Willy T.

You have never read Rothbard I see. You never read or tryed to engage some of the fine folks that write for Lew Rockwell or you could not think the above. (Based on lwm's smear jobs you will not read these sites?)

I have always been ready to discuss anything you care to discuss. In the past, you changed subjects fast after a point or two was made; but even more irritating was you never ofter what your ideology would call for, or what it has produced in the past.

I'll give you a try William. I'll write a response to your questions tonight when I can get to it. (over the weekend at the latest if life gets in the way)

I would appreciate a substantive response after I do, and try to hold the puppets down to a dull roar if possible. You may be surprised to find that libertarianism is almost indistinguishable from Classical Liberalism.

I'll post the reply on whatever thread looks to be one that you could see it one.

-b1

"... The libertarian would say tough, that's just freedom in action, and collective action is evil. ..."

---Willy T.

Jesus! You people will lie at the drop of a hat. You know (have been told many times!) that libertarians love collective action! We love voluntary non-coerced collective action. It is called society.

It is the forced collective action that gives you the gulag, or genocide.

Please stop this codswallop of misrepresenting libertarianism at every opportunity you get.

Yes, you may well be.

A Southern Bell cable splicer in Florida made a tad under 10k in 1970. It paid for a new house, two cars, wife, 4 boys.

Boy, the fed sure has destroyed our money --- too bad libs can not see it.

-b1

"Ask any prisoner. They "got a bum rap", almost all of them." --gc_wall

Most of them did get a bum rap. If you have never studied the horrible system that pretends to be a justice system in this country, you might feel "they all are guilty".

But, they are not.