William:

Right-wingers say that labor unions are corrupt, so we should get rid of them. Yes, some unions have been corrupt, but the right wing's desire to get rid of them has nothing to do with their corruption, and everything to do with the corruption of the owners of what Marx quaintly called the means of production.

I can agree with all of the above; but I would quibble and say I also know a fair amount of liberals in this town who feel the same way. Too bad. My dad was the president of a local steelworkers union back in his day. I saw that company and union benefited from a good relationship between labor leaders and management.

Governments grow from little acorns into giant oaks; their shade kills as well as shelters. It is true.

That is the elephant in the room. (can i get an amen for a pun?)

If you have a perfect government today; your great grandchildren will face tyranny.

Perhaps you should read Paul Rosenberg's last comment again. The administration of the human enterprise, and the institutions of power which permit it are always fraught. You can't escape the twenty-first century. Our institutions of power these days, centralized, rationalized, and equipped with the all the modern instruments science and engineering have crafted for them, appear impervious, whether they clothe themselves in the guise of government or global capitalism. Their only weakness is that they have human beings at the helm, and arrogant ones at that.

I am not opposed to leaders, nor to law; just the opposite. I do oppose the idea that certain leaders should have a special privilege to use force, coerce, or compel others to submit to their leadership. They should not use force in ways that would be impermissible for other people to use force.

Anarchists favor there being more leaders, not no leaders; as many leaders as followers will follow. Similarly, anarchists do not oppose law, but rather oppose the existence of any body of men with the power to make law by merely decreeing it to be law. We disagree with the monopoly on law and force within a defined border that constitutes the modern nation-state.

Jefferson's popular democracy is under attack from all quarters; what we call government is only one of its enemies. Still, if we accept the idea that politics can -- and should -- trump economics, we might be able to employ government to better ends. We have no such hope with corporations empowered by laws once intended to nurture the entrepreneur.

I agree. However, my point is that Jefferson's government died years ago and that there was never any doubt that it would. :-(

Hell William, it is not that I like the fact that governments always become totalitarian --- I live under a government.

I am sure you have heard of the concept of "ironic evil". Ironic evil: the evil good men do even as they try to do good. Beware that.

b1: .."but, I do not see using government to punish them simply because I dislike them so much ..."

PD: "Are zoning ordinances and minimum wage laws "punishment" or are they simply ways that communities impose standards of behavior on their otherwise disembodied neighbors?"

How did you get there? My comment was that you may deal with Walmart where they broke the law, and I mentioned zoning first. There is much more. They had god damn slaves living in a store --- I saw it on the news. I bet they broke anti-trust laws.

The quote you use ( and did not care for, I guess) is the closing idea that you may not morally punish them with legal actions just because you can do so and want to do so. If you do, you become as morally bankrupt as the present ruling administration.

To clarify. Hit them were they are guilty; but not where they are innocent.

William: "I take it this is a vote for warlordism?"

No. It is a vote against governments who in the 20th century murdered perhaps 200 million of their own citizens.

" New Estimate of 20th Century Democide as 262,000,000"

"...Occasioned by my study of King Leopold's democide in his Congo Free State, I have raised my estimate of colonial democide to 50,000,000. I published the details of this in my blog here , and followed that up with a docudrama -- what it was like to be a native in Leopold's Congo -- to give heart and feeling to the cold statistics. It is here (bottom of the page). ..."

William, I am sure many here get a real personal charge out of feeling as if they stand on the side of the angels of god as they claim that they would only use the awesome power of government to make the lives of the weak much better. But, I have to ask: what about the dead?

(note: Warlordism comes from western meddling, and then pretending we did not sell all those weapons and did not destroy their traditional culture.)

They are just a bunch of mercenaries, nothing new there.

This has nothing to do with the idea of private protection companies competing for the contract to be to your guard service. Blackwater is just doing black-ops for hire to the highest government bidder.

William: "... Ever share a neighborhood with Hell's Angels? Or a crack house? ..."

William, you seem able to communicate. You bring up a couple of the evils that the "war on drugs" has given us in defence of government. I figure you know that I will respond that all drug laws are bogus.

Have you ever researched the history of "illegal drugs" in these United States. At one point you could send your grandson down to the corner druggist to bring you heroin back. There were not millions of "addicts" nor street gangs to sell the drug. There were no violent turf battles.

Why?

(your turn)