John, I'm not going to go over this again. Wait - is that wild applause I hear from the rest of the letters section? Anyway, I'm not angry at all. I don't have any reason to be, but, it is plainly obvious that you're bitter.

"KSTONE, I don't consider pointing out risks to other men to be "whining." And I am skeptical of your implication that you are male."

You might not consider it whining but it is. You're not pointing out so-called "risks". Your "risks" are actually complaints based on extreme outcomes not the norm. Again, you're making very suspect assertions about marriage in general and projecting your well-mannered bitter reasoning and faux victimization onto other men. Do some guys unfairly get hosed? Sure. So do some women. The deck is not stacked against men. Why are you skeptical that I'm male? Because no male could possibly disagree with your assertions? Right... Well, you can believe what you like, but unless I have a sex change operation, your skepticism is misplaced.

Sympathetic Woman,

Thanks for the reference. I agree Salon did a much better job with this subject 5 years! ago. The Cathy Young and Tracy Quan articles are quite well done and much more nuanced than most of the ongoing discussion. It should be required reading before writing a letter here.

...is a complicated process with specfic guidlines that vary from state to state. Usually, voluntary termination requires that both parents be in agreement that whichever parent is applying for termination should be granted termination. If they are not in agreement, the parent applying must prove that he/she meets the state's criteria for termination. Involuntary termination is when the state decides to terminate a parent's right. The notion that a guy who wants out of child support can simply run down to the courthouse and terminate his paternal rights just like that is misleading.

PC has long become like that famous phrase about porno - "you know it when you see it". Anyway all you have to do is lazily label something "PC hogwash" and viola! you can dismiss it! How cute but I guess it does serve the interest of brevity. Eh.

But I am amused by some other notions expressed here. Namely, that not wanting kids in an adult environment like a bar means that one doesn't like kids and is a warped individual or that one is giving alcohol some sort of special mystique.

LOL! Dang y'all, how far are we going to stretch the meaning of bar? Anyway, of course you have to change your lifestyle. It was your choice. Therefore you have to make the adjustments. What is this "sharing the world" drama? Making the proper arrangements is sometimes tough but that's your problem. So, because you couldn't get a sitter and felt like going out for a drink, it's okay to stroll your kid to the bar and anyone who might complain is "humorless" and uptight? Yeah, right. You want others to accomadate your choice. You're not sharing, you're asking that a certain space, adult bars, conform to your choice.

Yes, it's not about the kids per se. It's about the rather large sense of entitlement some parents seem to have. Generally labeling people who, imo, rightfully point this out, as "anti-kid" or "passive agressive" is as silly as labeling all parents with the same brush.

"On the other hand, bargoers need to grow up a little too. Children exist in the world, and their parents are people too. My summers would be endlessly dull if I couldn't take my son with me to the delightful Bohemian Hall Beer Garden in Astoria -- which by the way welcomes them with open arms (until 9 p.m.). Why should parents have to live beer-free as a cost of having kids?"

Your name-calling aside, where does this notion come from that non-parents are in some kind of denial about the existence of kids and the fact that "parents are people too"? Good lord, it's damn near impossible to avoid them. Also, it's cool you found a place that works for you, but, why do you think you would have to live beer-free if you couldn't take you son to the Beer Garden? The last time I checked beer was sold all over the place. The point is you seem to feel entitled to take your kid to a mostly adult place that serves beer.

"For a lot of people - childfree or parenting - anywhere THEY are is THEIR space. Therefore, if they feel like yapping on their cellphones, they do. If they feel like screaming at their mates, they do. If they feel like trashing their cafe tables and leaving the mess for an underpaid service person - they do. And if they have kids and those kids are hollering, who cares? Anyplace they throw their stuff is home.

Except not.

Until every person learns the difference between rights and privileges, and between public and private space, we're all going to continue to suffer."

Btw, good luck with your pregnancy!

"Wah wah wah!" says the supposed grown up who has to deal with the fact that there are other people in the world.

"Wah wah wah!" says the defensive person who's lamely asserting that people who suggest that parents not bring their kids to bars or let them run amok in liquor stores don't want to deal with the fact that there are other people in the world. How so? It's a very bizzare argument. Perhaps "ums" should take his/her own advice about growing up.