Apparently, the only thing that matters is whether something is "explicit" or not. Btw, it's clear you don't listen to hiphop beyond some of the commercial artists. If you did, you would have known of the artists domini mentioed below

"And while it's true that rock music can often be interpreted to express mysogeny, drug use, etc, its hip-hop's EXPLICIT celebration of criminal behavior, fag bashing, women hating, cheap and tawdry materialism PLUS the adulation of hip-hop stars (and R&B) in the intellectual and pop-culture communites (rock-n-roll WAS ALWAYS seen as subversive and counter culture)"

I couldn't let this pass. That's about the lamest excuse for rock music that I've seen in awhile. If you don't like rap, that's one thing but to hold up rock as some sort of sterling example is hilarious. "Interpreted", huh? In reality, it would probably take me "forever" to list all of the rock and roll songs that EXPLICITLY express and celebrate the items listed above. BTW, what decade are you living in? Rock and roll stars ARE adored in the "intellectual and pop-culture communities" and everywhere else and rock, excepting punk MAYBE, hasn't been even remotely subversive and counter culture in 40 or so years. Rap was "subversive and counter culture" until they started giving Grammys to songs like "Bust A Move". Now it's maninstream like pretty much eveything else.

You can't name any current or old mainstream rock songs or acts that have sold millions or are popular or influential and are EXPLICITLY misogynistic or celebrate drug use or criminality or violence or and so on? Really? C'mon now.... Anyway, I'm not sure which is more amusing, your previous notion of "counter culture or subversive" (lol) rock and roll music or your current silly grade Z Howard Stern imitation. You really don't know what you're yapping about - especially when it comes to rap.

Marilyn Manson and NIN, eh? Nothing against either one of them, but, if that's your idea of "subversive and counter-culture" then...hahahahaha. Trying to puff up your youthful days and tastes, huh? Such vanity. As far as 50 Cent goes, some of his stuff is entertaining and some of it is stupid and to compare it to MM or NIN is silly and pointless. Not that it matters what I think because he's laughing all the way to the bank.

You really nailed how this was going to turn out.

"And it just seems to me like the kind of folks who care so deeply about this are the same ones who hate meat, collect cats, think spanking is the same as abuse, vote for a spoiler like Nader....God, I'm exhausted."

Very close. People here usually tend to try and elevate their personal choices beyond the norm. One recent letter here particularly amused me. It was something along the lines of all kids should have exactly the same level of rights as adults and if you don't agree with that simplistic dictum...err, I mean "consistent" dictum, then you clearly don't think kids are full human beings and/or you using parenthood as a cover for despotism.

jeffrey,

You should be beyond embarrased by now. You think you're "calling me out" simply because you continue to ignore the myriad of rock songs that engage in all of the terrible things that you're laugably trying to lay on rap? Why on earth should waste my time to goggle something that YOU know to be manifestly true? You don't have a leg to stand on so you're blustering for time.

Still on the Marilyn Manson kick? Marilyn and I are both still laughing... What you thought you were all "subversive and counter culture" when you spent your youth all gothed up and holed up brooding to MM and NIN? Hahahahahaha.....whew Well at least you enjoyed the music.

No, it's not. Like your letter, it's utterly predictable posturing. Like your hysterics about "amputation" or multilation and whatnot. You clearly don't favor circumsicion but you can't leave it at that. My point was that some people here are almost pathologically unable to simply state their opinions and be done with it. Their opinions must be the Truth.

Frankly, I don't really care either way about circumsicion. It's an individual family choice and, hopefully, this family will figure something out. What bothers me about it is the family's public grandstanding. If the kid gets proper treatment and continues to have problems, then circumcise. If he doesn't have problems anymore, then leave him as he already is. See how straightforward that was? No anguished cries about amputation or mutilation or soapboxing about childrens right. Come to think of it, that is pretty un-fucking believable around here.

Btw, thanks for absurdly comparing circumscion to child abuse and/or child abuse laws thus illustrating that the LW I quoted (mrchuck) at least knew what he was talking about when it came to certain folks. The penis stuff I'm not so sure about and, being straight guy, I don't have the inclination or energy to find out, but, I'll give him the benefit of the doubt.

Dang girl, not bad at all. :-) I feel like singing "she's a brick hause..." While it's true some black men like em "thicker", I suspect there are plenty of them looking your way.

Sorry but soccer isn't popular here compared to the traditional major US sports. The World Cup is a unique event and it's not surprising it can out draw hockey. The proper comparison would be the MLS to the NHL.

"This is because most of the people who read Salon...."...blah, blah, blah and so on with self-pitying rant.

Oh please, I see you're still in flame war mode. That was appropriate in the disasterous "Big Love" letters section but out of place here.

I read the article again and while it's not up to the level of the "Big Love" craziness, it's a bit much, I take back my earlier comments.