"What if this was just a stupid idea from an administration full of stupid ideas, and in practical reality there is no intelligence value in what the telecoms did?"

Even if there was some intelligence to be gained by the acts of our government and the telecoms, the fact remains that they broke the law acquiring it. Some might suggest that as long as the "evidence" gained through warrantless snooping isn't used in a court to attain a criminal conviction, that there was no harm done. This sounds nice but in reality, there is no way of knowing whether evidence gained illegally has or will be used in criminal prosecutions. For instance, was the conviction of Jose Padilla acquired in part, through intelligence gained through illegal activity? Unless the courts are allowed to delve into this, there is no way of knowing whether Padilla (used only as an example) was legally convicted. The fact of the matter is that the activities of our government were not in accordance with the law as it was at the time. Period. It makes no difference whether or not there was any intelligence value to what they did. If someone were convicted for breaking the law, the value of what they did could be argued as mitigation during sentencing but until that time, it doesn't matter.

The answer to all your other questions is, Yes.

Note: I am not a lawyer.

Thank you.

I'll check with my lawyer and see if your gracious award is acceptable.

Click my signature for more.

"This issue is a no brainer - not only are the majority of cases involving activities and telecommunications OUTSIDE the country where rights are not and SHOULD NOT be extended, but the information being requested is much less than what is given to marketing companies in daily data mining."

and you know this? How?

The administration and their corporate allies have refused to divulge what information was gained through their admittedly illegal activities, much less where the targets of their illegal activities were located or even who the targets were (are). Since when did our rights under our Constitution end at the water's edge?

"When are people such as yourself going to stop treating our security as some kind of gotcha game, remove the politics and instead allow our children to grow up without fear of terrorists having more rights than you would grant the average conservative? (It's always about the children!)"

When are people such as yourself going to stop allowing this government to confiscate our rights under the guise of protecting us from (shudder) terrorists. I'm more worried about people who think like you than I am of Osama bin Laden or his cronies.

Meanwhile, Osama sits in his cave laughing his ass off at cowards from the Right who would do his bidding and change our free society from within. He doesn't even have to lift a finger to get you guys to do his bidding.

Aren't you ashamed of yourself just a little bit?

"Kennedy wants to go after WH and leave telecoms alone

If I understand things correctly, Sen. Kennedy has proposed an amendment that would give immunity to the telecoms by not identifying any of them and identify all the WH actors allowing action against them."

Now, the rubber will meet the road.

"Egads.

What hath Reid and Rockefeller wrought?

Forgive them, I suppose, for clearly they know not what they do.

Aux armes, citoyens!

Formez vos bataillons!

Marchons! Marchons!

Etc."

to which I can only add....

Laissez le Bon Temps Roulet!!!!

Huh?

many will find a need for Gold.

Not Maya Gold, but Acapulco Gold.

All this Senatorial maneuvering seems to be based upon something which happened in the background.

Certainly, it cannot be due to these spineless excuses for Senators suddenly finding religion.

It certainly won't hurt to continue to contact the campaign offices of Sens. Clinton, Obama and Edwards and remind them of the importance of this issue to their natural constituents. Edwards can help by merely being present and keeping the other two in line.

There is absolutely NO EXCUSE for either of the voting Senators to miss this vote and certainly NO EXCUSE for them not to vote properly. Let them know that this is a drop dead issue.

Can you visualize the image these candidates could offer the American people by presenting a solid and united front on this single issue?

In one fell swoop (I've been trying to get that phrase into a post for months), they could put to rest all the nasty slicing and dicing the MSM has been promoting for the past several days and let the American electorate know that the Democrats are offering them a serious alternative to the way business has been conducted in Washington for the past decade.

Imagine....Clinton, Obama, and Edwards all standing in the well of the Senate and standing against the continuing parade of lawlessness which has been allowed to continue for far too long. Even better would be a joint Communiqué from all three candidates which in easily understandable terms explains their position on this issue and issue the Communiqué immediately prior to the State of the Union address.

"too many consultants stand in the way."

Sadly, you're probably correct.

I've often wondered how much of our fate is in the hands of "consultants" and staffers as opposed to those who we actually elect.

"Sure is amazing how so many people think some material thing whether its money, clothes, homes, jewelry, drugs, votes, cars etc., will make them happy, when only our love of ourselves and others and nature can do that. It is sad that people give their power over to so many things and other people and keep looking for something that is right there in their brain."

How true.