OK, blueturtle and others keep bringing up that one play. Sure, call stealing didn't affect that one. So take away the offensive drives where it might have made a difference and now you have a 14-7 Jets win.

People also keep saying "I don't understand why Bellichek did this against the Jets when he'd have beaten them anyway."

You have no way of knowing that. Maybe without the cheating the Pats are no better than the Browns. Maybe they're the equal to the Jets and it'd have been a very close game. The truth is you don't know what kind of an advantage it brought the Pats. You also don't know if this kind of thing was rampant in the league or if the commissioner specified they'd be enforcing this because so many teams complained about the Pats doing it. You're engaging in wild speculation just as much as those who claim the Superbowls are tainted.

You're OK with me saying 5-year-olds are too young but not 6-year-olds?

When I read "people with drivers licenses" I think 18. Most places I've lived 17 gets you a permit. Some places 16 gets you a permit. One person said you can get a tractor license at 14, that's not a driver's license. I'm not saying this because I'm trying to be pedantic about what age people can get a license at. I'm saying that when I read "people with drivers licenses" I think 18 and that threw all the numbers off in my head. Especially "people with drivers licenses who can remember" which makes you start doing calculations in your head when all the other numbers are 10 years and 5 years longer than that.

At least it made me start doing them. Sadly, it stopped me cold in reading the story and started me trying to figure out if I'd read the numbers wrong or you'd confused the 15 year streak with the 19 year streak or if I'd missed which team you were talking about.

While I agree that the cheating is more important than some think, the question "What does more damage to the integrity of the NFL?" isn't really a valid one. Neither has to damage it more and both can damage it in different ways to different people.

I've met Pats fans over the last few days that have said if the cheating is proven, they're going to stop watching for at least this season and others who have said they'll stop if the penalty isn't harsh enough. These people probably don't care about the off-field idiocy of some players, but there are definately others who do care about that and stop watching because of that.

Players have been idiots because people are idiots and they're people. People who will stop watching because of player idiocy become fans in the first place partly because the don't know of the past idiocy. Other reasons they might become fans and then stop watching because of personal player idiocy include

They figure it is isolated, but as it continures they get fed up.

One particular incident hits too close to home for them.

Their sensitivity to such things increases as they get older.

They can't fool themselves any more.

And so on, I'm sure there are dozens I haven't mentioned. Also, because people are idiots and frequently inconsistent in their reasoning.

I think this is gender based, because you can guarantee scads of women would be complaining about the guy in the speedo

No, it is because you think everything is gender based and against you.

Does anyone have even the slightest shed of evidence that this is untrue?

Well, sheds are pretty big. I don't know if I have an entire shed of evidence, no matter how small it is.

Now that I've finished amusing myself with the typo...

Cheating and lying are two sides of the same coin. Do you have the slightest shred of evidence that it it true? He's been caught cheating, why should we take his word? I'm not saying he is lying, I'm saying you have no idea if he is or isn't and he's forfeitted the right to take him at his word.

So you're another one that thinks Bellichick is an idiot? 'cause there's no other reason to keep doing something like that when you've been specifically warned against it if there's no benefit at all to you. The commissioner must be an idiot too if he handed down fines as big as he did for a tiny infraction. But you know it didn't make any difference. Sure.

I find myself kind of pulling for them now...

Oh good, maybe there are enough fans of cheating that it'll make up for the fans that are put off by it.

1) Harrison's suspension for HGH

OK, what about it. He's been caught and suspended for 4 games. He broke the rules and was suspended for it.

2) Shanahan admitting that he does the EXACT same thing (albeit without video - which again is most likely the reason for the rule

Without the video. In other words, not against the rules and not the "EXACT" same thing.

Again, why hasn't Shanahan and the Broncos been hit?

Because it wasn't arules infraction.

Look, you have no idea how much the videotaping thing was helping Bellichick. Neither do I. Also, neither of us have any idea what the real reason(s) is for this being illegal, just a lot of supposition.

The commissioner of the league seems to think it was a pretty big deal and isn't "the MOST asinine controversy" he's ever heard and I'll bet he knows more about it than either of us. Hell, lots of sportscasters think it was a big deal and lots of players seem to think so too. If he was getting an advantage out of this that other teams weren't getting, it creates a playing field that isn't level and compromises the game. And it does so on a level beyond any single player using the Banned-Substance-of-the-Day because it is the whole team that gains the benefits.