Don't weasel on the subject of abortion and its fundamental immorality. There is no logic whatsoever that can justify the millions upon millions of abortions that have occurred since 1973. None whatsoever. Even the vaunted argument of "individual freedom" does not square with the facts. This is the principle reason the Dems have not cleaned up politically since 1973.

In 1995 Pope John Paul II declared that the Church’s teaching on abortion "is unchanged and unchangeable. Therefore, by the authority which Christ conferred upon Peter and his successors . . . I declare that direct abortion, that is, abortion willed as an end or as a means, always constitutes a grave moral disorder, since it is the deliberate killing of an innocent human being. This doctrine is based upon the natural law and upon the written word of God, is transmitted by the Church’s tradition and taught by the ordinary and universal magisterium. No circumstance, no purpose, no law whatsoever can ever make licit an act which is intrinsically illicit, since it is contrary to the law of God which is written in every human heart, knowable by reason itself, and proclaimed by the Church" (Evangelium Vitae 62).

You seemed to be inclined to dismiss the Pope's words on abortion merely because he is the Pope and not make an earnest attempt to understand what he is saying about the inherent immorality of abortion-on-demand.

Other posts are whining about "aquinian" logic but I challenge the different postees to comment on the fact that Aquinas also was the developer of the theory of "just warfare". Every liberal I know signed up for the "just war" theory, including the Pope himself in 2003, leading up to Iraq, so what gives?

I expected a bit more intellectual rigor in these posts instead I see only convoluted logic that strains credulity and whining about the politics of the messenger.

Obama came to Saddleback (which is 5 miles from where I am writing this post) because he trusted Rick Warren to not ambush him on silliness and "gotcha" politics. I think Rick Warren delivered on the promise. I think Obama did much better overall on style and providing confident answers. I thought the audience was enthusiastic and respectful about Obama because Saddleback is not a whacko tele-evangelistic money-grubbing, faith healing, "praise the lord" kind of church. It's in the heart of Orange county which is republican territory but is changing due to Hispanic immigration. McCain initially was fidgety and seemed not sure where he was. I thought both candidates botched the first question where Obama gave the standard pat answer "I check with Michelle and then with grandma" Gimme a break. Maybe I can understand the Michelle thing but what's this about grandma? Then McCain comes from left field on Gen Petreus. Gimme a another freakin' break. The reality is that the POTUS doesn't check with anybody on the most gut wrenching decisions, least of all the military, but I probably would have to concede that the POTUS will bounce things off the wife.

I do agree with Joan that Obama will regret saying that understanding when life begins is probably "above my pay grade". He was probably pandering to the audience but a couple of million people are also watching.

Obama lost a few style points on the abortion questions because he was not succinct enough and took 5 minutes to wrap up his case. It was almost as if he was not believing what he was saying simply because it took too long to say it. McCain, on the other hand, was very much to the point: "life begins at conception" period.

I know you guys don't want to hear it or wish the whole thing would just go away, but Rick Warren gave new life to the body count for abortions since 1973 and the implication that pro-choice supporters have "blood on their hands". Warren did not miss this chance to educate the masses on the breadth and scope of abortion since 1973. To add emphasis, he even used the term "holocaust". I wonder if this perspective on abortion will gain traction and become a daily "fact of life" like the DOW or maybe the national debt?

If it does become part of the national conscience, the Dems have only themselves to blame because they have repeatedly shown disregard for embryonic human life, ridiculed those who do not share their views that maybe life really does begin at conception, made abortion rights the litmus test for all other so-called progressive policies, forced tens of millions of otherwise rational voters to vote against their own interests lest they be associated with such immorality on such a massive scale, won national offices in only 3 cycles in the past 9 cycles.

I know Obama wants desperately to lower the volume on the abortion issue, but he trusted Rick Warren to be "fair and balanced" and he certainly delivered on that promise.