"I'm just wondering how tolerant you would be if the religious clothing was complete nudity, or a mask of Mohammed or a ceremonial chainsaw or..."

Betcha you didnt know that religious sikhs are actually required to keep a ceremonial dagger on their person. As for the mask of Mohammad, technically it can't happen because Islam forbids representing the Prophet's face, but in principle I got no problem with it. And I will go on record to say that the Khengsta is ALWAYS in favour of complete nudity. Nudity rules!

Seriously though, you need to understand the underlying disconnect. What we have at play here is a fundamental disconnect between our beliefs in tolerance, and our own fundamental values. We preach religious and racial tolerance. We loudly proclaim that people should be free to express their religious beliefs. And then we recoil when we realise that there are people out there whose beliefs differ from our own, sometimes radically! So what do we do? Well, sometimes we bite our tongues and try to be tolerant. But mostly, because we are tribal apes at heart, we tell them to become more like us. No, you Rastas cannot smoke weed. No, Sikhs cannot carry a concealed weeapon. No, you Mormons are not permitted to have more than one wife, I don't care if it is really consenting. And now, No you Muslims can't wear burqas.

We try to hide behind any number of rationalisations. Some countries try to prohibit halal butchery on the grounds of animal cruelty. Or we convince ourselves that Rasta beliefs aren't serious and they just want an excuse to smoke weed. Or that no Muslim woman could possibly actually want to wear a burqa. But at the end of the day, what it really boils down to us is a value judgment. My traditions are right, and yours are wrong, and while you live in my country, you must conform.

In this respect, at least the crazy religious right is intellectually honest. They have no qualms about calling Islam evil. Those of us with a more humanist bent just shuffle our feet and fudge the issue.

Where do I stand on this moral grey area? I believe that short of the most barbaric and horrific practices (e.g. genital mutilation, or the keeping of slaves), cultures should be given the space to have this dialogue for themselves. These dialogues take time. It took Christians a while before we decided that burning witches at the stake, or torturing minorities to convert, may not be the best policy. In the mean time, hands off!

"The French are not going to beat, rape or throw acid in the faces of burqa-wearers as has been done to unveiled women from the Sahara to Afghanistan"

No, the French are not going to do that. They are going to make it illegal to wear a burqa. For the sake of protecting those women who are coerced into wearing burqas, they are going to deprive the rights of other women who genuinely feel its part of their religious identity. The message is "We are going to protect you by making you become more like us, by force of law if necessary, because our secular traditions are inherently right and your religious traditions are inherently wrong".

Well, thats mighty kind of the French Government, going out of its way to liberate us ignorant backward religious types! Great White Father really does know best! Oh Joy!

And I wonder how precisely they intend to enforce this law. On penalty of fines? Jail time? Denial of public services such as education (e.g. Turkey where if you wear a headdress, you can't attend university)? Forced stripping? Yes, I can see how those sanctions will work wonders on a section of the French population already marginalised by poverty, ghettotization, and institutionalised French racism.

Look, I won't deny that underlying the wearing burqas is an ideology that values women less than men. But if we really are gonna start attacking every institution that keep women down, why must we always focus on the traditions of cultures alien to our own? You wanna talk about oppressing women? What about the Western fetish with body shape? A fashion industry that programs us from birth to equate weight with self-worth? An entertainment industry that teaches us beauty is a necessary prerequisite to happiness? Why aren't the sisters on the steps of Capitol Hill demanding laws be passed? Or picketing Hollywood and Vanity Fair to hire healthier looking actresses/models? Why is it for these oppresive traditions we have resigned ourselves to clucking our tongues in disapproval, but for the Muslim community we feel the need to legislate away their religious identity?

Why? Because the outsider is always an easy target.

Now, not only have the wingnuts hijacked this thread to discuss their pet peeves, now they're posting to discuss themselves.

Seriously, soberinput, do you really have nothing better to do than to post declarations exclaiming how smart you are, and how stupid every one else is?

I can only hope that this is some kinda cynical ploy to attract more hits to your blog. The alternative, that you post as a bid for attention, is simply too pathetic for words.

Thanks a lot! You just cost me $20.

My co-worker bet with me that this thread would inevitably attract the standard troll post trying to divert the discussion to abortion, even though it has literally nothing to do with the issue. I said he was being too partisan and cynical, and in any case it wouldn't make sense. He said I was overestimating the capacity of the conservative wingnut mind to exercise logic.

My mistake.