The Iris Murdoch quote is probably impossible to argue with on its own terms..but, that said, there is plenty of scientific evidence now to suggest that human beings are wired by evolutionary selection to believe in the supernatural.

The simplest way to put this: take 10 atheists. Take 10 fanatical muslims. The atheists are one team, the Muslims the other team. Put both teams on a deserted island and leave them there until one team is left standing. Which team will be left? I'd put my money on the Muslims, although if a couple of especially savage atheists are included in the team, they might take out a few Muslims before it's over.

This is a dumbed-down version of what evolution has accomplished. Belief in the Supernatural is a survival adaptation gone horribly wrong. It worked great in early human history. And you could probably make a case that it still works pretty well. Although in a world of 6-billion people, and counting, that particular survival adaptation doesn't seem too practical, especially when so many religions command us to be fruitful and multiply--yet another excellent adaptation in the prehistoric world, but a lousy one in this world. Lousy for survival of civilization. Still useful for survival of individual DNA.

Since our DNA just wants to make more DNA, and get into the next generation, its brute force approach works. Badly, messily, but it does work. Unless, of course, population pressure results in nuclear war. Even then, though, some will survive, and reproduce, just as religion, and biology, command.

(anthropomorphizing DNA is a bad metaphor, but handy withal)

When Ghenghis Mugabe Jr. is President of the United States, and he launches a pre-emptive nuclear attack on China for the last of the fossil fuels, you can bet your last dollar he will be praying to his God, whoever it may be (pace Jay Hanson, who deserves credit for Mugabe Jr., if not his praying ways).

In the end, religious people are more likely to get their DNA into the next generation. Period. The responsible atheists are far more likely to be killed off, or they simply won't reproduce, and they won't get their DNA into the next generation.

You have to think Big Picture here. In the Big Picture, belief in the supernatural is almost certainly selected for.

You don't inherit your religion in the DNA..but you do inherit a strong inclination for some belief in the supernatural...hence Murdoch's observation, which is where I came in.

Of course, there is no God. Period. But our DNA doesn't give a shit about that.

realname wrote:

We leave. The VN declare victory. Cambodia collapses. Well we know how that ended. VN invades Cambodia in 1979, kicks out those butchers. Then there were a few border wars with China. Yeah other than that it was smooth sailing after we left. Oh and yeah those several hundred thousand boat people who fled VN after 1975. Well never mind it's all good.

&&&&&&&&&&

You really need to check your facts, dude. First, the reason Cambodia was destabilized so that Khmer Rouge could take power in the first place, was *because* of our disasterous interference in the internal affairs of Vietnam. We bombed Cambodia as part of our illicit war against North Vietnam, and that further destabilized the government there.

Had we NOT prolonged our participation in what amounted to a Vietnamese Civil War, Cambodia likely would never have been destabilized to the point of falling to the Khmer Rouge.

The ONLY reason Pol Pot was finally deposed was *because* of the Vietnamese! As you yourself point out. Once we left, the North consolidated power, and then had enough left in the tank to go after Pol Pot.

I'm not going to excuse North Vietnamese excesses. But if you fought a 40 year war against one invader after another, you might be a little honked off too.

The key point is that only after we left Vietnam, were the Vietnamese able to pull the country together enough to defeat Pol Pot, and end his murderous reign. WE certainly weren't going to do anything about Pot.

But, then, we never do anything about murderous dictators. Unless they happen to be sitting on a lot of oil. And we want to fight a war with them for domestic political reasons. THEN we go after dictators. Pol Pot murdered *millions* and we didn't do shit.

And your willful misinterpretation of wider context makes you look more than a little dishonest.

..who wrote:

Yawn. I'll pay attention to an atheist talking about theology when they, well, understand the basic precepts of the modern theological, scholarly discourse.

-- Rosenkavalier

**********

Uh, if there is no God. If there is only an uncaring Universe, then all theological discourse is nothing but a waste of time. And THAT is the point.

You want to discuss moral philosophy in the absence of any supreme being, then you have my attention. But if you think, as I do, that there is no "god" of any sort, then all theological discourse is just a lot of hooey. Some useful observations in some of it, without question. But until you take "God" out of it, it's hopelessly tainted.

vote by mail is the perfect system. Especially if there is also a voting day for those who have trouble, for whatever reason, voting by mail.

But the GOP would be absolutely terrified of voting by mail. And they will probably fight like weasles to prevent it wherever it has a chance of passing.

The dirty secret of the two party system in this country is that if we had a 60 or 70 or 80 percent of the voting population voting in this country, the GOP would NEVER win another national election..and they know it. The GOP doesn't want large turnouts and never has. Scumbags.