L.W.M.: And Nazis were socialists! It was in the name of the party!

Aren't you the one who was complaining about others putting their filthy words in your pure mouth? Clearly you need to learn what the word "nominally" means since you show no indication that it means anything at all to you. Here's another clue for you: the Democratic People's Republic of Korea is only nominally democratic and a people's republic. That means that it is neither democratic nor a people's republic. The terms appear only in its name.

L.W.M. Do IQs suddenly drop around here when AssIndeed shows up?

I presume you are speaking for yourself since that is the only person you are entitled to speak for. But it is obvious that some IQs can't possibly drop.

You've been out surfing the right-wing blogs again, haven't you? We've warned you that this has a deleterious effect on your powers of ratiocination. Go take a cold shower and come back when the blood-lust has subsided.

If elephantman is a Republican in Cook County, then I understand his frustration. No one is more irrelevant than a Republican in Cook County. Jeez, Mugabe's opposition has more clout than a Republican in Cook County.

If elephantman is a Republican in Cook County, then I understand his frustration. No one is more irrelevant than a Republican in Cook County. Jeez, Mugabe's opposition has more clout than a Republican in Cook County.

Tigerr: Using Klooster's Dutch roots as an argument against him? Come on.

The only thing that Klooster's Dutch roots indicate is that one doesn't have to be an American to be ill-informed about American politics.

But it's quite possible that "Dutch roots" may indeed have a bearing on why Klooster is so intent on trashing Obama to the exclusion of all others in this race. Where might Obama's and the Netherlands' histories intersect? Hmmm. Indonesia? Do the Dutch have a history with Indonesia? Well, yes. Have Indonesian (specifically South Moluccan) terrorists left a bad taste in Dutch mouths? Well, yes. Does The Netherlands have a sizable Muslim population mostly of Indonesian extraction? Well, yes. Does having "Dutch roots" have anything to do with Klooster's antagonism towards Obama? Who knows? — but it can't be dismissed out of hand.

And so when Klooster comes with nothing more than his claim that Obama's pastor is a "bigot and a race-baiter" based only on claims that he has read or heard from other bigots and race-baiters without being based on the full facts but rather snippets of a sermon that denounce America's racial past without considering the entire context of the sermon, one suspects that Klooster has some sort of agenda in brandishing those claims. Do his "Dutch roots" have anything to do with this agenda? Again, who knows?

Personally, I don't think anyone can comment on or understand Jeremiah Wright's position without being aware of the history of race relations in America. And, based on what he says, this is information that Klooster doesn't have. I also doubt that it is possible to know what it feels like to be a black in America without being a black in America. However, as a representative of a former colonial power, Klooster must be aware of the relationship between the former colonial subjects and the former colonial masters. Perhaps Klooster sympathizes with the bigots and race-baiters in his own country Who knows? — but it's not irrelvant.

PDA: Can you be sued for committing a war crime?

No, can you really?

Yes. You can be sued for most anything if the plaintiff can show standing and damages.

Actually, I was trying to point out that using the eternal wooden shoes cliché against Klooster was even worse than just a cheap shot below the belt.

I don't consider the wooden shoes bit to be an argument — just stereotyping — so I obviously misinterpreted your statement about using his Dutch roots as an "argument". Wooden shoes have no argumentative force.

If Dutch colonial history might influence or cause his dislike of Obama (you mean, he's a subconscious racist, basically? Really?), then that should have been used as an argument earlier on in this thread. I don't think that was the case.

As far as I know, it wasn't. As I say, I don't know if his Dutch roots have anything to do with his desire to trash Obama, but one needs some rationale for his constant repetition of already discredited talking points and Dutch roots may not be irrelevant.

And the Dutch are dealing with their own fearmongering rightwing politicians right now. They could use an Obama over there.

Well, they're trying to — and I wish them luck. But I don't think there are enough Obamas to go around. Basically, anyone who preaches peace and brotherly love is likely to get crucified.

This is some of the filthiest character assasination I've ever seen on Salon, which is saying quite a lot.
— Elephantman

As a summary of your own post, that is simply perfect. As nabalnazi would say "I couldn't have said it better myself."

Ooh! The Conservative Pundit Isn't Tough-Looking!
— Asher Steinberg

So what? They never are.

nabalnazi: I am sure that polls show healthy majorities of the American people do not view harsh interrogation of odious terrorists as something to be concerned about, witness the popularity of shows like 24.

I am sure that polls show healthy majorities of the American people do not view serial killers and cannibalism as something to be concerned about, witness the popularity of movies like The Silence of the Lambs.

"It is difficult to convince someone of something when his paycheck depends on him not understanding it."
— Upton Sinclair