Tyler: King said that Kwan is attractive, but not "intimidatingly so".

Hey King, care to tell us what the hell that means?

Sure. Maybe off-puttingly would have been a better word than intimidatingly. What I mean is she's an attractive enough person, but she's not so drop-dead gorgeous that you find yourself rooting against her, in the sense that, in Wilt Chamberlain's famous words, you root against Goliath. There's not that Schadenfreude of seeing the talented AND awesomely pretty girl get hers. I was talking about how it's easy to root for her. She's more of an everywoman than a too-pretty ice queen. I think the widespread, though not unanimous, dislike for Katarina Witt two decades ago was complicated -- there were elements of Cold War rivalries there, and also a perception that she wasn't as talented a skater as the American girl, Debi Thomas, but just knew how to push the judges' buttons -- but part of it was that she was just kind of a stunner. There's such a thing, in certain contexts -- not many, I'll admit -- as being too good-looking.

And: What Stepbaker said. Kwan was a great skater who, when the sport's biggest spotlight was on, choked. That has to be taken into account as you assess her. World titles and national titles are nice, but the Olympics are where it's at for most of the sports at the Olympics. The exceptions are those sports whose top participants look at the Olympics as just another event, or even an exhibition. Off the top of my head, basketball, hockey, soccer, tennis, baseball when there was baseball. Boxing is somewhat in this category.

I believe the boxing analogy is right on. Kwan is the equivalent of a boxer who won the Olympic gold medal, say, lots of amateur titles, and beat everyone around as a pro, but lost every pro championship fight. Yeah, all those other things are nice, and that person can look back it his career and be proud of it and call it a success, and his fans can admire and love him, and they can even put him in a video game. But when it comes down to making that short list of the all-time greats, he's not going to be on it, because part of being an all-time great is winning on the biggest stage, and Kwan had two shots, in her prime, at the biggest stage, and she lost twice.

Non-Dan Marino/Ted Williams example

Pete Sampras, he never won the French Open.

Thanks for reminding me of another good analogy. I actually don't think Sampras fits just for not winning the French, but a good analogy would be a tennis player or a golfer who wins all sorts of tournaments, is the leading money-winner year in and year out, say, and never wins a major tournament. The closest thing to Kwan that I can think of in this sense would be Phil Mickelson before he finally won that Masters a few years ago.

You can be the greatest golfer or tennis player in history all the other weeks of the year, but if you don't win a few majors, you're not going to be considered an all-time great. You're going to be remembered for not winning the majors.

... because I feel like this debate has played out and has been reduced to shrill name-calling and its equivalents.

scottwmackey: So, according to King's logic, Ali would not be remembered as one of the greatest boxers of all time had he not won the Olympic gold. Interesting.

That is interesting! It's pretty much the exact opposite of what I said, but it's interesting that you'd either misread me so badly or make the effort to twist my words.

What I wrote: "In sports that really only matter at the Olympics, you're judged by how you do at the Olympics."

And: "A better comparison for Kwan would be an all-time great boxer who never won a world championship." So it looks like I think pro world championships are the measure of a boxer, no?

Also, in the letters section, I wrote, "Kwan is the equivalent of a boxer who won the Olympic gold medal, say, lots of amateur titles, and beat everyone around as a pro, but lost every pro championship fight."

Rob Anderson: Allen Berra is twice the writer Kaufman is, and three times the sports writer.

It's Allen Barra, with an a, who's twice the writer and three times the sportswriter I am.

and/or The Woman!

Christy: Mr. Kaufman is saying that wouldn't it be nice if these athletes gave up what amounts to half of their typical yearly salary.

They don't all have to donate the whole thing. And gold medals often lead to more income.

tbrandel: If Bode's "the man," how can Rahlves also be "the man?" If I were either skier, I might feel like this shouting man was being a bit disingenuous, as he is telling me I'm the man five minutes after giving my teammate the same sentiment.

Just cause Bode's "the man" now doesn't mean he's going to be "the man" five minutes from now. Perhaps "the man"-ness is an ever-shifting title. Maybe the shouting man has a poly-hoministic belief system. (I just made up that term.)

marktgarten:

Because the more difficult a move is, the more points you get for it.

If the Chinese had taken a spill performing a simple maneuver, then perhaps the mulligan would be inappropriate. The Chinese, however, were attempting something very difficult and rare.

Unless I'm mistaken, there's nothing in the rule regarding how difficult a trick was that resulted in an injury that requires a restart.