"the General was representative of the military...that is basically what was going on in the perception of the people watching.

I see no evidence of that. And that is clearly not what MoveOn actually DID. Polls show that a majority of Americans believed BEFORE the ad that Betraeus was going to mislead them. MoveOn is in synch with the American people.

The problem is defeatist pussies like you who simply assume that they must bow down to their Republican overlords. Defeatist pussies like you who assume that the Republicans will twist their words and there's nothing we can do about that.

The fact is, bro, if you are right and the Republicans can successfully twist our words no matter what we do, then all is lost already. You might as well give up. In fact, I wish you would give up so the serious patriots can do their job without you little children getting in the way.

"Oh yes, I've seen that report...I just don't connect the war to the recruitment of Al Quaeda. You see, they were recruiting LONG before we got to Iraq. And I don't believe the war has increased their numbers any more than they already would have been"

I guess you got some sand on your boots and now you think you know more than all of the intelligence agencies in the U.S. government.

Yeah, that's credible.

Its not like the guys who write the NIE are a bunch of pacifist leftist bloggers who have it out for the Republicans. If they say something like that, it is almost certainly true.

Good thing for you, you've got all that practice licking boot so you can get that sand off of yours.

Solutions? You want solutions?

Your boy George totalled the family car and now you want me to pull out some cool tools and fix it? Sorry, bro. Face it. That car is totalled.

There is no way to "win" an occupation. You either occupy or you don't. The only question is whether we are better off staying or going. The costs of staying are enormous. I say we're better off cutting our losses now instead of later.

Here's a solution for you, bro:

1) Build a time machine.

2) Go back to 1999 and assassinate Ralph Nader.

"One would HOPE that if a solution is asked for, a VIABLE answer would be forthcoming."

Yes, one would hope...

But after you wrap that car around the telephone poll, you can hope that with enough putty and parts you can fix it. But that doesn't mean you actually can.

When you're sitting at the blackjack table watching your stack dwindle away, you can hope that you can double down and win your money back. But casino owners make fortunes on the hopes of fools like you.

Hope is not a plan. This situation is hopeless. That's realism, not pessimism. You fools chaasing after that lucky break are going to bankrupt us financially and morally. And you're getting kids killed.

As a matter of social hygiene, you people need to be politically marginalized so you and people like you can't drag our country down any further, chasing your feeble hopes and pipe dreams.

Here is why I express disdain about the MoveOn detractors.

We are in a fight. We are in a fight with people who fight dirty and want to harm us, by taking away our rights, destroying our democracy, and waging an immoral war that cost possibly 1,000,000 Iraqis (and certainly thousands of Americans, mostly kids) their lives -- a horrible atrocity.

This is not just an intellectual dispute. This is a power struggle. And the other side does not fight by Marquess of Queensbury rules. Our side, however, mostly does, which is why we're getting our asses kicked.

Here's an analogy: It's like the Republicans started a fight, they have been pushing us around, throwing sand in our eyes, biting, and sucker punching. MoveOn says enough is enough and finally gives them back a little taste of their own medicine -- and then people like you join in a general condemnation of MoveOn! It doesn't make sense and it's not fair in the sense that it is unjust. It's usually wrong to punch someone -- BUT NOT IN SELF-DEFENSE.

Here's where the analogy breaks down. Since Petraeus did in fact betray us, MoveOn didn't even break the Marquess of Queensbury rules. They are only the messenger. Stop taking shots at the messenger, Joan.

It did not escape me that you called me "stupid".

Wow, Joan. I can't believe you cut 1 of my posts in the "Profiles in Democratic Cowardice" letters thread and then closed down the discussion entirely. Especially since that 1 post that you cut is my explicit defense against your charges and on behalf of all my other posts in that thread. Other than my original post addressed to you, it was the most important thing I posted on that thread. And you censored it.

I am literally shocked.