Excuse me, but aren't the Blue Dogs the ones that keep giving away the farm to 'moderate' Republicans like Grassley, who go ahead and say he's not going to vote for anything, ever?

The Blue Dogs are the ones that have helped enable the GOP to push all the mendaciousness and misinformation about the health care reform, and have essentially been bought and paid for by insurance companies...

And yet the major concern is to stare down the 'liberal lawmakers' to get things done? Despite most Republicans already saying they won't for anything period?

The republicans have not negotiated in good faith, and the Blue Dogs are the ones that want to keep that going. But no, lets blame the damn dirty f***ing hippies who want health care, because they're obviously the big obstacle in getting crap done.

Screw this, I'm done with politics.

The funny thing about that is...how many of them would vote for her regardless?

Is it just me, or does the Blue Dogs' fear of electoral damage for supporting the Public Option just not resonate very well? How much of the actual damage they see could have been mitigated by actually going out to fight and educate about the bill? How much of the damage they face are from people who would ever actually vote for them in the first place? How much is she trying to appease people who will vote against her regardless, much like how much of their negotiations in Congress are with Republicans who have already admitted to not planning on voting yes on anything no matter how much compromise is made (including the chief figures in the Senate compromise itself)?

So according to Conrad, only the Gang of Six's version will ever be considered?

And Snowe says that because no Republican will vote on it, the public option isn't even an option?

Under that standard, no reform is any option, since just about every single damn Republican who has made any statement on their actual vote for any bill has inequivocally stated that no compromise will be good enough to get them to vote. And supposedly, these people are to create what will be the final bill, 'or else'?

The saddest part of this is that Conrad may be right. If only because Republicans will be sure to get the most toothless bill they can before they vote it down...and Democrats will let them do it.

The sad difference though is that often times, said Blue Dogs, said DINOs tend to be acting against what their voters and constituents want. Look at the Health Care debate, where Blue Dogs such as Baucus, Ben Nelson, Blanche Lincoln, etc., try to claim that they can't vote for a public option because it's a nonstarter for their constituents, when said public option has a majority of support in their states.

Whereas with RINOs, or the Republicans too 'liberal' for the right-wingers, it's usually those pushing for more hyper-conservatives that lack the support. Their policies and ideas were rejected of the last few elections, but their thought is 'We lost because we became too liberal, we need to be MORE Conservative, we need to hate liberals EVEN MORE than we already do!' That's where the problem of RINO vs. DINO is.

Love of country DOES entail recognizing and criticizing its flaws, you know.

Nationalism is 'My country, right or wrong.'

Patriotism is 'My country, right or wrong, to support when it's right and to change when it's wrong'.

I just continue to find myself amazed, really, at the incestuous reflex to defend Fox sometimes. It’s such a one-way relationship too. Fox News gleefully calls most of these folks ‘liberal puppets’ and claim their in Obama’s pocket and the like, yet the moment Fox is threatened, you’ll find no more ardent defenders than the WaPo, NPR, AP, and most media folks outside of Olbermann and Maddow.

But the left probably shouldn't underestimate the ability of a party to sober up at the last minute. How do you think John Kerry got himself nominated in 2004?

Coalition building...backroom deals...a suicidal negative press by Gephardt to take Dean down with him...

Honestly, Kerry is a horrible example here, Gabe, because if not for the played up 'Dean Scream' and essential fear of Dean's stridency, we wouldn't have gotten the crapfest that was the Kerry Presidential Campaign.

Dean seems positively prescient now, not to mention his good work as the DNC chair.