was just being railroaded by Hoekstra when the GOP had control of the panel. I see now how wrong I was-and how both she and Rockefeller are neck-deep in thier complicity.

I too have read the threads over the ends justifying the means and see the dangers of Shooters' replies that those who leakied the info are doing more damage than those who actually tortured. It's amazing to me-the way that breaking all of our laws, usurping th Constitution--somehow gets justified in the minds of those like Shooter(where IMAGE is everything).

It totally boggles my mind how much the "strong,hero" image is more important to morons like this---over moral principals.

Our country has been looked up to in the past by other countries-BECAUSE of our morality, our Justice system, our system of checks and balances. Witchhunts like these rendition flights,torture serve only as reminders of where historically, countries have gone wrong in thier past. Germany and Hitler anyone? No one man, such as a President-or in this case I suspect VP-has the right to decide to change the moral values of a country to achieve his own means.

Shooter just how dumb are you-to overlook the fact that both Cheney and GW come from oil backgrounds?

How dumb are you not to see the fact that GW has NEVER successfully managed ANYTHING in his life?

How dumb are you not to see that something is terribly wrong when human beings are locked up for over 6 years without any charges ever being brought?

How dumb are you-not to realize if supposed "terrorists" are being jailed in other countries, as opposed to here in the US--that very fact REEKS of corruption,illegality.If it was justified-why not hold trials here in the US?

It makes me wonder whether people like you Shooter, or like Harmon and Rockefeller have any kind of moral compass whatsoever---to never recognize the flaws of your own logic in defending such tactics, when there is no defense of it.

Buying into such amoral, illegal activities means you've reached a point of no-return on the moral slide down.

I, and most posters here with morals think though, that we'll be damned if you(Shooter, GOP, BLUE DOGS) take this country or us down with you on your moral decline into hell.

People have what is called "free choice", and very much resent having that taken away on moral decisions by people with no empathy, no logic, no reality,no moral guiding principals whatsoever. Trying to shove such mistakes like torture and the hiding of tapes under the rug-only ensure more corruption, not less. It does nothing to teach us the lessons of those mistakes-the essence of what mistakes are supposed to do.

Wt and RMP make some excellent points. Not sure where you were going with the neuroscience theory and freewill..

My point on it is this:

I believe some higher being instilled in all of us (whether you are agnostic or athiest)a moral compass to guide us. It's what's kept civilization going for centuries-what's created order out of chaos. When those codes are broken down by govt-it then creates chaos. That's where I think we are now-by the actions of our govt.

I think our Founding Fathers knew and thought of freechoice when they wrote the Constitution.I think it was provided for-by freedom of religion. That should even think of athiesm as a religion also. Most athiests I know are not lacking in any morals-the only difference is whether or not they believe in the same God/higher Being I do.

Religion or spirituality, despite what we see from the extremism of it-on the whole makes humans more aware their own compassion, empathy, compassion and tolerance of other humans and the planet. It's men with thier egos--who have many times hijacked those basic things-and led others astray in thier morals.So it's those followers of men like these who have given up thier freewill-and instead willingly put thier fate in someone elses hands.

On my own spiritual journey in the last few years-I've come to conclusions about God on my own-without outside interference---by specifically MAKING my own freechoices about what I believe. I actually took the time to ask myself that philosophical question---why am I here? where did I come from? How can I be happy?

It's been years in the figuring and listening---but I do believe in an afterlife, I believe in the soul. The ego and materialism are just illusions, if we think this is how we should measure ouselves or judge ouselves by. There is much more to the human existence than this----yet my govt., with its' capitalistic, imperialistic ways----wants me to think otherwise(that it is the ego). A fatalisticly flawed belief-which will enslave the mind to the ego---therefore keeping anyone from being truly happy-or finding their own purpose in life. flawed becasue it depends on those who follow it to think---"if I just had this, I would be happy",or "if I just had more oil, I would be happy..."which sets you up for a circular, neverending pattern of always wanting more. who capitalizes on that?--corporations of course. Corporations who have hijacked our govt.

In a nutshell-it is becasue of freewill-that I have that same right to take responsiblity for my own soul, my own afterlife, my own fate, my own search for God---which IS provided for in the Constitution (freedom of religion-athiest or not).Becasue religion or spirituality is something not yet proven-or proof or moral codes by science---does not mean it does not exist. i think it means science either has not yet caught up technologically to prove it-or perhaps it is something, by design, not meant to be proven. Maybe that's the test of faith-is believing in those morals and listening to ones own morals while respecting others-without proof-is what religion is about.